Tuesday, May 22, 2018

No need to experience anattā, but experiencing anatta-lakkhaṇa,non-self-characteristic, is required

Everyone are experiencing anattā (5 aggregates), but only the insight-practitioners are understanding anattā as anattā. So, the practitioner is trying to understand "how it is not attā", then he practice to understand like that in everything. But, he doesn't practice to experience anattā. Actually, he practice to experience anatta-lakkhaṇa of anattā (5 aggregates), which he understanding it as attā, by ñātapariññā. Then he practice, tīraṇa-pariññā, that experience in everything to abandon, pahāna-pariññā, atta-vipallāsa in everything.
The deep concentration-meditation can help the insight-practitioners to understand anattā as anattā easier. But the concentration-meditation can not understand anattā by itself, so we need Buddhā to teach us the insight-meditation; we can't practice the insight-meditation before Buddhā enlightened and teach us insight-meditation.
The understanding in anattā as anattā is gradually practice in neyya-practitioner, such as many bhikkhus who gradually memorize a new "little"-sutta in Saṃyuta-nikāya each time after they finished to practice the previous sutta and still not enlighten; but abruptly practice in ugghaṭitaññū-person and vipacitaññū-person, such as Sāriputta and Moggallāna. So, the gradual or abrupt practice are depend on 5 indriya/bala of each practitiner.
Another, this question is not connect to 4 stage of enlightenment, because the sotāpanna already perfectly abandoned atta-saññā/citta/diṭṭhi-vipallāsa, so every ariya have fully anatta-saññā/citta/diṭṭhi without vipallāsa.
So, the question's explanation should be "How to meditate insight meditation", which is explained in most sutta, especially abhidhamma. For the summary:
  1. The practitioner has to pause bodily/verbal/mental unwholesome-mind/mind's factors by concentration-meditation.
  2. Then the practitioner has to practice the relativity-understanding of causes-aggregates and their effects-aggregates in paṭiccasamuppāda-cycle into everything, included hell and heaven, past and future, every change. Then after the practitioner understand 3 characteristics, anicca-lakkhaṇa/dukkha-lakkhaṇa/anatta-lakkhaṇa, by that practice, he has to practice to see that 3 characteristics into everything, included hell and heaven, past and future, every change.
  3. The tips to accelerate meditation speed is "finding the tipitaka-memorizer who carry on tipitaka-tradition from the the previous tipitaka-memorizer" to be your teacher, because he know many tactic from tipitaka to teach you meditation.
For the meditation in brief or advance, all already taught in tipitaka and atthakathā. Actually, it is better than my summary above, but you have to successfully meditate the insight-meditation at pa-auk with the tipitaka-memorizer. Then, after you enlightened, you will understand tipitaka&atthakathā easily.

Saturday, May 19, 2018

sentient beings (satta) means dukkha-khandha (being) which still cycle-processing (sentient;paṭiccasamuppāda)

Yes, it is, if the sentient beings means dukkha-khandha (being) which still cycle-processing (sentient;paṭiccasamuppāda).
The being of asañña-satta is in the cycle processing, but asañña-satta has not nāma-paṭiccasamuppāda, so "sentient" shouldn't means sentiency. See Sutta. Aṅ. (4): sattaka-aṭṭhaka-navakanipātā sattāvāsasutta:
There are sentient beings that are non-percipient and do not experience anything, such as the gods who are non-percipient beings.
Santi, bhikkhave, sattā asaññino appaṭisaṃvedino, seyyathāpi devā asaññasattā.

They are the synonyms of each other: jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho

  1. In the first chapter of the first canon of tipiṭaka, Vinaya verañjakaṇḍa and Sutta. Aṅ. (4): sattaka-aṭṭhaka-navakanipātā Mahāvaggo Dutiyo verañjasutta, already show all of them: jāti, sañjāti, abhinibbatti, khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo.
  2. And for āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho and okkanti, it appears in Sutta. Tī. Pā. Saṅgītisuttaṃ.
  3. There are many sutta about rebirth in Sutta such as SN Khandhavagga Nāgasamyutta, etc.

Let's see:

1. jāti, sañjāti, abhinibbatti, khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo in verañjakaṇḍa

Abhinibbatti is rebirth into the wombs:

The Realized One has given up future wombs, which is rebirth (abhinibbatti) into a new state of existence. He has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, exterminated them, so that they’re unable to arise in the future.

Tathāgatassa kho, brāhmaṇa, āyatiṃ gabbhaseyyā (=each other synonym=) punabbhavābhinibbatti pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.

and

This was my first breaking out, like a chick breaking out of the eggshell.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, paṭhamā abhinibbhidā ahosi kukkuṭacchāpakasseva aṇḍakosamhā. (1)

The others synonyms and the other related words, such as maraṇa cuti bheda, are used as the bold words below:

“There is, brahmin, a sense in which you could rightly say that

“Atthi khvesa, brāhmaṇa, pariyāyo, yena maṃ pariyāyena sammā vadamāno vadeyya:

I’m an abortionist.

‘apagabbho samaṇo gotamo’ti.

I say that an abortionist is someone who has given up future wombs and rebirth into a new state of existence. They’ve cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, exterminated them, so that they’re unable to arise in the future.

Yassa kho, brāhmaṇa, āyatiṃ gabbhaseyyā punabbhavābhinibbatti pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā, tamahaṃ ‘apagabbho’ti vadāmi.

The Realized One has given up future wombs and rebirth into a new state of existence. He has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, exterminated them, so that they’re unable to arise in the future.

Tathāgatassa kho, brāhmaṇa, āyatiṃ gabbhaseyyā punabbhavābhinibbatti pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.

In this sense you could rightly say that I’m an abortionist.

Ayaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, pariyāyo, yena maṃ pariyāyena sammā vadamāno vadeyya:

But that’s not what you’re talking about.

‘apagabbho samaṇo gotamo’ti, no ca kho yaṃ tvaṃ sandhāya vadesi. (8)

...

When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward recollection of past lives.

So evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇāya cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ.

I recollected many kinds of past lives. That is: one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand rebirths; many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world evolving, many eons of the world contracting and evolving. I remembered: ‘There, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When I passed away from that place I was reborn somewhere else. There, too, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When I passed away from that place I was reborn here.’ And so I recollected my many kinds of past lives, with features and details.

So anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo tissopi jātiyo catassopi jātiyo pañcapi jātiyo dasapi jātiyo vīsampi jātiyo tiṃsampi jātiyo cattālīsampi jātiyo paññāsampi jātiyo jātisatampi jātisahassampi jātisatasahassampi anekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe: ‘amutrāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto. So tato cuto (=maraṇa) amutra udapādiṃ; tatrāpāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto. So tato cuto idhūpapanno’ti. Iti sākāraṃ sauddesaṃ anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi.

This was the first knowledge, which I achieved in the first watch of the night.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, rattiyā paṭhame yāme paṭhamā vijjā adhigatā;

Ignorance was destroyed and knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed and light arose, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute.

avijjā vihatā vijjā uppannā; tamo vihato āloko uppanno, yathā taṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato.

This was my first breaking out, like a chick breaking out of the eggshell.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, paṭhamā abhinibbhidā ahosi kukkuṭacchāpakasseva aṇḍakosamhā. (1)

When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the death and rebirth of sentient beings.

So evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite(ṭhiti) āneñjappatte sattānaṃ cutūpapātañāṇāya(cuti/cavanatā[maraṇa] + upapāta > pātubhāva) cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ.

With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They spoke ill of the noble ones; they had wrong view; and they acted out of that wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. These dear beings, however, did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they acted out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.

So dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena satte passāmi cavamāne upapajjamāne hīne paṇīte suvaṇṇe dubbaṇṇe, sugate duggate yathākammūpage satte pajānāmi: ‘ime vata bhonto sattā kāyaduccaritena samannāgatā, vacīduccaritena samannāgatā, manoduccaritena samannāgatā, ariyānaṃ upavādakā, micchādiṭṭhikā, micchādiṭṭhikammasamādānā. Te kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapannāti. Ime vā pana bhonto sattā kāyasucaritena samannāgatā, vacīsucaritena samannāgatā, manosucaritena samannāgatā, ariyānaṃ anupavādakā, sammādiṭṭhikā, sammādiṭṭhikammasamādānā. Te kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapannā’ti. Iti dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena satte passāmi cavamāne upapajjamāne hīne paṇīte suvaṇṇe dubbaṇṇe, sugate duggate yathākammūpage satte pajānāmi.

This was the second knowledge, which I achieved in the middle watch of the night.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, rattiyā majjhime yāme dutiyā vijjā adhigatā;

Ignorance was destroyed and knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed and light arose, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute.

avijjā vihatā vijjā uppannā; tamo vihato āloko uppanno, yathā taṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato.

This was my second breaking out, like a chick breaking out of the eggshell.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, dutiyā abhinibbhidā ahosi kukkuṭacchāpakasseva aṇḍakosamhā. (2)

...

When it was freed, I knew ‘it is freed’.

Vimuttasmiṃ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ ahosi.

I understood: ‘Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.’

‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti abbhaññāsiṃ.

This was the third knowledge, which I achieved in the last watch of the night.

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, rattiyā pacchime yāme tatiyā vijjā adhigatā;

Ignorance was destroyed and knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed and light arose, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute.

avijjā vihatā vijjā uppannā; tamo vihato āloko uppanno, yathā taṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato.

This was my third breaking out, like a chick breaking out of the eggshell.”

Ayaṃ kho me, brāhmaṇa, tatiyā abhinibbhidā ahosi kukkuṭacchāpakasseva aṇḍakosamhā”ti. (3)

2. āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho and okkanti in Saṅgītisuttaṃ

Four kinds of conception.

Catasso gabbhāvakkantiyo.

Someone is unaware when conceived in their mother’s womb, unaware as they remain there, and unaware as they emerge. This is the first kind of conception.

Idhāvuso, ekacco asampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati, asampajāno mātukucchismiṃ ṭhāti, asampajāno mātukucchimhā nikkhamati, ayaṃ paṭhamā gabbhāvakkanti.

...

Four kinds of reincarnation.

Cattāro attabhāvapaṭilābhā.

There is a reincarnation where only one’s own intention is effective, not that of others.

Atthāvuso, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanāyeva kamati, no parasañcetanā.

...

Some sutta is too short, because some students not too smart. So, they can memorize a little/short sutta each studying time.

The genius student can memorize and understand a big/maximum data each studying, so, the sutta is long. But, if the student is not too much smart, he can memorize and understand a little/minimum data each studying, so the teacher have to teach the sutta for him in short form and maybe incomplete paṭiccasamuppāda's process.
Because, in the oral study system, we memorize one sentence/paragraph (=each sutta) from the buddha or the tipitaka-memorizer (arahanta). Then we study/ask/practice/comprehension follow that memory, until we perfectly understand it (professional). If we still not enlighten after that. We will go to memorize the other lesson more, again. We will loop it until we are the tipitaka-memorizer, too. This is the tipitaka tradition. We still doing follow this tradition, for 2600 years.
So, it is already described itself, if you read the previous sutta. They were sequenced by paṭiccasamuppāda.

Let's see:

13.4.1 (30) Catusso — Four Elements = kevala(ssa) dukkhakkhandha(ssa) = rūpa-paṭiccasamuppāda, upattibhava/jāti/jarā/maraṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda.
13.4.2 (31)/13. 4. 3.(32) Pubbe — the satisfaction (assāda), danger(ādīnava) and the escape (nissaraṇa) on account of the earth element.
Assāda = 60 piyarūpa-sātarūpa, in saccapabba of Sutta. Dī. Ma. mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta, which are objects of taṇhā-paṭiccasamuppāda:
Bodily phenomena in the world are pleasant and agreeable, there taṇhā, when arising, arises, there when settling, it settles.
Buddha said assāda as somanassa-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda in these 2nd and 3rd sutta, 13. 4. 2. (31)/13. 4. 3.(32):
Whatever pleasantness and pleasure arises on account of the earth element, that is the satisfaction in the earth element.
So, above quote showed assāda as 60 piyarūpa-sātarūpa which come to salāyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda, then let somanassa-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda arise, then let taṇhā-paṭiccasamuppāda arise.
But the way to escape "kevala(ssa) dukkhakkhandha(ssa) in paṭiccasamuppāda" showed in these 2nd and 3rd sutta, 13. 4. 2. (31)/13. 4. 3.(32), too:
“ That the earth element is impermanent, unpleasant and a changing thing is the danger (ādīnava) in the earth element. Taming the interest and greed for the earth element and dispelling the interest and greed for the earth element is the escape(nissaraṇa) from the earth element.
13.4.4 (33) Yo no cedaṃ –– If There Weren’t, is then if the practitioner can not realize the danger (ādīnava) in the earth element to escape (nissaraṇa) it, then there are the interest and greed (taṇhā/upādāna-paṭiccasamuppāda) which attaching somanassa-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda. (And that sukkha/somanassa-samphassaja-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda taking the earth element at kāya/mano-āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda together with kāya/mano-samphassa-paṭiccasamuppāda as well. Also, that kāya/mano-āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda are rūpa/nāma-paṭiccasamuppāda, which is "mano pubbaṅgamādhammā".) So, buddha showed somanassa-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda, taṇhā/upādāna-paṭiccasamuppāda, and upattibhava-paṭiccasamuppāda in 13. 4. 5. (34), 13. 4. 6. (35):
  1. “Bhikkhus, he who does not delight (taṇhā-paṭiccasamuppāda which attaching somanassa-vedanā-paṭiccasamuppāda) in the earth element (mana-āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda's object) does not delight in unpleasantness(kevala[ssa] dukkhakkhandha[ssa]). He that does not delight in unpleasantness, I say, is released from unpleasantness.
Then the buddha presented the effects, jāti/jarā/maraṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda, of "he who does not delight in the earth element does not delight in unpleasantness. " from 13. 4. 5. (34), 13. 4. 6. (35) into 13. 4. 7. (36) Uppado — Arising:
  1. “Bhikkhus, the appearance(upādo=jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda), being (ṭhiti=jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda), arising (abhinibbatti=jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda), and rebirth (pātubhāva=jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda) of the earth element is the appearance of unpleasantness, the continuance of ailments and the manifestation of decay and death.
Please notice, abhinibbatti and pātubhāva are used as the synonym of jāti-dukkha-ariyasacca to describe "jāti" in saccapabba of Sutta. Dī. Ma. Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta, too. So, they are connect together.

Thursday, May 17, 2018

Seventeen thought moments explains the Dependent Origination

In a closer analysis of these two, I felt both these concepts address the same.
Yes, it is. Whole of abhidhamma is describing the insight meditation's object. But the object of insight meditation is every conditional arising stuffs. So, abhidhamma must describe everything in paṭiccasamuppāda.
ie: Seventeen thought moments explains the Dependent Origination.
Avijjā and kamma in the past, create the present paṭisandhi/bhavaṅga/cuti-mind(viññāna/manāyatana)-paṭiccasamuppāda, it's mind factors-paṭiccasamuppāda (nāma-paṭiccasamuppāda), and it's depending on matters (rūpa-paṭiccasamuppāda).

Then that bhavaṅga-mind-paṭiccasamuppāda's vanishing+contact-paṭiccasamuppāda of outside matter/inside mind āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda create pañcadvārāvajjana-mind-paṭiccasamuppāda.

Then that pañcadvārāvajjana-mind-paṭiccasamuppāda +contact-paṭiccasamuppāda of outside matter/inside eye/etc āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda create inside eye-mind/etc āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda.

Then that inside eye-mind/etc āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda. +contact-paṭiccasamuppāda of outside matter/inside mind āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda create inside santīraṇa mind āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda.

Etc.

This is just the example. There is many detail which I can explain in a few day.

there are 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' consciousness, while the practitioner is attaining 4th-jhāna

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:01 am
Consciousness is present in the 4th jhana. While Abhidhamma has some different ideas to the Pali suttas; Abhidhamma would not be so extreme & discordant to say the 4th jhana has no consciousness.
The fact is both sutta and abhidhamma never said "there is no consciousness of 4th-jhāna-attaining people". But abhidhamma said "asaññasatta has no consciousness".
DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:01 am
From an Abhidhamma book:
Fourth Jhàna moral consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 62)
....
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
It is a very misunderstood quote. The quote showing 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' minds, not asaññasattas' minds.

Another, all of your quote showing "both abhidhamma and sutta said 'there are 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' consciousness, while the practitioner is attaining 4th-jhāna'". Because in anupadasutta, which you quoting, said about 4th-jhāna-consciousness of sāriputta as the object o the insight meditation of sāriputta, which he does after he exit that 4th-jhāna.

So, both abhidhamma and sutta said "there are 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' consciousness, while the practitioner is attaining 4th-jhāna".

do the suttas allow for temperature born matter at all though? Or in the suttas is all matter necessarily the of kamma/volitional formations? If not, how did the elders explain this?

zan wrote: ↑
Wed May 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Okay thank you, do the suttas allow for temperature born matter at all though? Or in the suttas is all matter necessarily the of kamma/volitional formations?

If not, how did the elders explain this?
It is appear in the similitude of Sutta. Aṅ. (1): eka-duka-tikanipātā accāyikāsutta:
“tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, kassakassa gahapatissa accāyikāni karaṇīyāni. katamāni tīṇi? idha, bhikkhave, kassako gahapati sīghaṃ sīghaṃ khettaṃ sukaṭṭhaṃ karoti sumatikataṃ. sīghaṃ sīghaṃ khettaṃ sukaṭṭhaṃ karitvā sumatikataṃ sīghaṃ sīghaṃ bījāni patiṭṭhāpeti. sīghaṃ sīghaṃ bījāni patiṭṭhāpetvā sīghaṃ sīghaṃ udakaṃ abhinetipi apanetipi. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi kassakassa gahapatissa accāyikāni karaṇīyāni. tassa kho taṃ, bhikkhave, kassakassa gahapatissa natthi sā iddhi vā ānubhāvo vā: ‘ajjeva me dhaññāni jāyantu, sveva gabbhīni hontu, uttarasveva paccantū’ti. atha kho, bhikkhave, hoti so samayo yaṃ tassa kassakassa gahapatissa tāni dhaññāni utupariṇāmīni jāyantipi gabbhīnipi honti paccantipi.

"There are these three urgent duties of a farming householder. Which three? "There is the case where a farming householder quickly gets his field well-plowed & well-harrowed. Having quickly gotten his field well-plowed & well-harrowed, he quickly plants the seed. Having quickly planted the seed, he quickly lets in the water & then lets it out. These are the three urgent duties of a farming householder. Now, that farming householder does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my crops spring up today, may the grains appear tomorrow, and may they ripen the next day.' But when the time has come, the farming householder's crops spring up, the grains appear, and they ripen.
This similitude already show the understanding in activation energy (Ea) of the buddha which can occur in the matter cycle without kamma. This is called utu-niyāma in atthakathā.

Also, there are more information of the processing in "visuddhimagga maggāmaggañāṇadassanavisuddhiniddesa rupa-nibbatti-passanākāra-kathā (no.700)", the translation is path of purification (however, I think the translation of that path may be wrong, if they translate it follow the thai translation version). It is about 1 utu-matter (tejo) can create 4-12 new matters depend on the type of that utu.

So, you can use above information with Sutta. Tī. Pā. Aggaññasutta, and Sutta. Aṅ. (2): catukkanipāto puttasutta.

In my opinion, it is not make sense when someone say "every matter must arise by kamma", because it can not connect with the science. And it will be very complicate to arise, such as "if one stone can arise by infinity kamma, how the matter in the other galaxies, which are no lives, can arise?". But when the matters can arise by the other matters, especially temperature (tejo), without kamma-requiring, it is very clear and more possible to happen.