Have to know before to read atthakathā

Tipiṭaka and atthakathā are keep by oral study system. So:

1. There are uncountable descriptions that atthakathā described in previous atthakathā and in visuddhimagga, so this atthakathā is not complete. This is the problem of reading study system, but is not a problem of reciting study system which is ancient method.
2. Original text in pāli-language is the best, easiest, and maximum performance way to learn tipiṭaka and atthakathā. The translation is just an alternative way.
3. Tipitaka-memorizer is very important qualification to be a teacher in atthakathā culture.
4. Each sutta and it's explanation must complete in itself, by the relation of words/sentence/paragraph. And they must be compatible with the other sutta by meaning.
• So, mostly atthakathā are not comment or opinion, but it is description. Because atthakathā describing the reference to prove the relation of each word in tipitaka. Mostly words of atthakathā has it's own reference from it's sutta context or the other sutta which is relating. Then sariputta and the other tipitaka memorizers use these relations to author their own canons, such as khuddakapātha, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, abhidhamma, parivāra, netti, commentary, etc. In contrast, mostly comment or opinion words base on concepts, which mostly without reference.  So, mostly explanations in atthakathā are not just the comment, but it is the description.
5. Atthkathā-teachers are very serious to keep tipiṭaka as original. Changing anything in tipitaka is seriously denied by tipitaka and atthakathā.
6. There are 4 ages of atthakathā: 
1. 1st-saṅgāyanā-atthakathā (0BE), 
2. 2nd-3rd-saṅgāyanā-atthakathā (~100BE, ~218BE), 
3. siṅhala-atthakathā (450BE-900BE), modern-atthakathā (~950BE). 
4. The modern-atthakathā. This is the combined version of the other atthakathās, so nowadays just modern-atthakathā still available. But we can say the other atthakathās still going on in modern-atthakathā, because the modern-atthakathā composer, buddhaghosa,  swore to the mahāvihāra-saṅgha that he must did just translating and merging all atthakathā together. This swearing still appear in the introduction of every modern-atthakathā.
7. Modern-atthakathā were categorized very clear. The 1st-saṅgāyanā-atthakathā is the primary structure. When something in the other atthakathā is difference from the primary structure, it is added next to it with note mark, if is necessary, as an extension, such as "in pañcarī (siṅhala-atthakathā) wrote...", then the structure return to the primary structure again. Buddhaghosa's opinions are the same. So no any complication between each age of atthakathās that were combined in the modern-atthakathās.
8. Reading study system doesn't has good enough performance to understand tipiṭaka and atthakathā. Many misunderstanding in tipiṭaka and atthakathā come from reading. Because reading through often cross many syllable/word/sentence/paragraph/sutta/vagga/etc, but reciting is harder to cross.

The history of mātikā (nidāna)

Mātikā already described in the same canon after cittuppādakaṇḍa. This answer is for if you means abhidhamma is pāli-canons, too.

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The modern professors never know the method to read tipiṭaka and atthakathā, so they can't found the mentions in tipitaka. They often distorts tipiṭaka and atthakathā. I am sorry. I just want to let you see the primary cause of your question, I don't want to slander them.

What is the method to read mātikā?

The history of mātikā (nidāna)

In atthakathā told mātika was described by sāriputta as 6 abhidhamma canons. Sāriputta memorized mātikā from buddha then he taught mātika and his mātikā's descriptions to his students, then his students recited them mātikā and it's descriptions as abhidhamma-piṭaka at 1st saṇgāyanā.

Who is sāriputta? Sāriputta is the best teacher like the buddha who exalted by the buddha in A.N. Ekakanipāta, Ekapuggalavagga. And many sutta showed that everyone in buddha's time respected in sāriputta's description, such as in MN Mahāgosiṅgasālasutta which every etadagga go to listen sāriputta's describing dhamma (and all of them were the most important theras in the 1st saṅgāyanā of thera-vāda, therefore it is impossible that the abhidhamma and the other sāriputta-literal canons not come in 1st saṅgāyanā).

So, if mātikā is really taught by sāriputta we must can find abhidhamma style dhamma in sāriputta's sutta, too.

And yes, I often found it. But the ancient western professors studied tipitaka and atthakathā by bias of the western religious problems. Therefore, they never found these important connection. So, the westerner still uneducated by the obstruction, bias.

You need the revolution to understand tipitka and atthakathā deeper. And that revolution is the using kālāmasutta in the ancient western professors' comments, be aware their books.

Answer for anti abhidhamma/commentary people

Zom wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 pm

because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules.

You are anti commentary, so you distort my translated history from commentary, by your just opinion.

Zom wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 pm

By the way, what is your opinion on that fact that Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the discriptions of both 1st and 2nd theravadin councils? If it was so important, this is a bit strange, don't you think? Especially when Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the suttas at all.

I gave you the pāli link to seaching for the reason yourself, why you never read it?
Do you found your opinion by yourself from pāli canon?
Or you just believe your professors, but never read any abhidhamma-pāli and commentary-pāli by yourself?


In ancient commentary, that authored in buddha times and added more important information about each saṅgāyanā later until 4th saṅgāyanā (then added into siṅhala commentary instead, so it called ancient commentary), said:

1. In 1st saṅgāyanā, bh. kassapa asked 4 suttanta with bh. ānanda:
   1. Before 1st saṅgāyana, vinaya was memorized & authored by bh. upāli and memorized by his students. Suttanta was memorized by bh. ānanda and his students. Abhidhamma was memorized & authored by bh. sāriputta and memorized by his students. After 1st saṅgāyanā, I explained before.
   2. So, we can see abhidhamma-styled suttanta by sāriputta's sutta that memorized by ānanda in suttas, such as D.N. saṅgītisutta, D.N. dasuttarasutta, etc.
   3. bh. ānanda, was one of not direct bh. sāriputta's students because in mahāgosiṅgasālasutta said ānanda and the other etadagga often go to sāriputta's school to listen sāriputta's teaching.
      • However, ānanda was not a computer, he cannot memorized 4 nikāya together with 6 abhidhamma. (can you memorized sutta-pāli just 1 vagga?)
   4. So, in A.N. ekakanipāta etadagga-pāli, buddha said ānanda was the best in sutta-memorizer, upāli was the best in vinaya, and sāriputta was the best in teaching.
2. The meaning of dhammavinaya is dhamma+vinaya = (sutta+abhidhamma)+vinaya. So, by the description it was already included in 1st and 2nd ancient theravāda saṅgāyanā.
3. If you even actually studied abhidhamma, you will see the fact "it is actual that abhidhamma was just a dictionary and commentary of suttanta". Abhidhamma looks like formulas of arahanta. So, alagaddūpamasutta's commentary and introduction of viniaya's commentary said "memorizing whole tipitaka is just a job of arahanta-ariya". Because when arahanta's task done, ādittapariyāya sutta, then he can recite tipitaka full-time. Then when someone memorized many relational stuffs, they will reference each related stuffs together.
   • So, in commentary's and sub commentary's introductions of D.N. and ovādaka-sikkhāpada-vaṇṇanā said "whole 500 arahanta at 1st saṅgāyanā known "

Another in my experience, asoka's magathī is very difference from pāli and commentary. So, abhidhamma, except the 4th canon, and commentary can not wrote in that time.

And, by the way, how will you explain that fact that language in Abidhamma differs a lot (from linguistic point of view) from that in Suttanta?

I explained by the historical reference, not just professor suggestion and imagination like you did.

theY wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:37 am

\

At buddha time, oral reciting&memorizing was the only one way to learn buddha's teaching. So this is the main cause to have commentary at that buddha generation.

Why?

Because Buddha taught each sutta for just students in front of him. So, when bh. ānanda, bh. sāriputta, and bh. upāli had learned oral teaching from buddha, then after buddha finished sutta, they must asked about state, situation, and meaning of each word in that sutta. This was called the great dhamma&vinaya commentary.

There are very less people in tipitaka who appear to be the most important commentators at buddha generation (A.N. Ekapuggala) : budhha, sāriputta (as dhamma teacher), upāli (as vinaya teacher). The others always listen&learned&asked from those important teachers.

The special teaching, about vinaya from buddha to upāli, were appear with upāli literature style in sikkhāpada-nidāna, sikkhāpada-vibhaṅga, parivāra, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

The special teaching, about dhamma from buddha to sāriputta, were appear with sāriputta literature style in abhidhamma-pitaka, K.N.Niddesa, K.N. Paṭisambhidāmagga, K.N. Buddhavaṃsa, K.N. Cariyāpitaka, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

Tipitaka strongly keep in pali language because of memorizing vinaya rule that force bhikkhu to memorize tipitaka before live alone or teach others.

But the great commentary didn't include in that vinaya rule, so when the time gone by, commentary loose pali form.

However, the great commentary translated to siṅhala after 3rd saṅgāyanā and translated back again (with extended comment from siṅhala-teachers) by buddhaghosa and many bhikkhus at 10th buddhist century.

Layers of pali literature already being in buddha-living-period.

There are many pali literature in buddha's time, such as buddha's literature, sāriputta's literature, mahākaccāna's literature, upāli's literature, etc. Because every mahāsāvaka have there own students.

But the most influential literature are buddha's literature and sāriputta's literature.

4 nikaya are buddha's literature, most of the others cannon are sāriputta's literature, because he is the one who buddha said "sāriputta is the best teacher who can teach like me". So everyone always go to meet sāriputta to listen his teaching, in his literature. But if someone need buddha's literature, they will go to meet buddha or ānanda, who is the best in sutta memorizing.

So, abhidhamma is difference from sutta, because commentary said "abhidhamma is memorized by sāriputta". And the other buddha's sāvaka book also have literature look like sāriputta's literature because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to learn dhamma with sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).

7 Vinaya-pitaka, is memorized by Upāli and his students. He also author some path of parivāra because buddha said in tipitaka (a.n.) "Upāli is the best vinaya-memorizer" (vinayadharānaṃ yadidaṃ upāliฯ).


Suttanta-pitaka is memorized by Ānanda. But in 1st saṅgayanā, 500 arahanta decide to separate whole sutta to 4 nikya.Then they gave each nikya to a group of 4 etadagga and his student to especially memorize it.


Who are the members, of group of 4 etadagga? Ānanda and his students (tn), Sāriputta's students (mn), Kassapa and his students (sn), Anuruddha and his students (an). (The others have learned and memorized dhamma, too, but buddha said "ānanda is the best", so everyone need him in 1st saṅgayanā).


Abhidhamma-pitaka, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, buddhavaṃsa, cariyā-pitaka, except kathāvatthu of moggalliputta, is learned by Sāriputta, But then they are memorized by every arahanta, because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to listen Sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).


Origin: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0101a.att0.xml

http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/se ... Commentary

Nothing difference between suttanta and abhidhamma and commentary, when you deeply understood pali language

Where is abidhammists' explanation? I found just the pāli's relationship. Abidhamma is just a dictionary that suttanta-memorizer, sāriputta-mahāsāvaka, made. So, I can explain below without any abhidhamma reference. But it looks like abhidhamma view, because nothing difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma.

The difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma is just the under standard tipitaka study, not recite whole tipitaka-pāli, not memorize whole tipitaka-pāli, not taught by professor who recited and memorized tipitaka.

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Why you have to quote too much commentary. Useless.

Just pāli is enough. If you recited&memorized&understand pāli words' relationship, no need commentary. It is the same.

I am a trustful buddhist in tipitaka, commentary, and abhidhamma. But "where is abhidhamma in this my reply?".

---------------------------------------


The translated tipitaka in thai and english are imperfect, lost many pāli relationship. But tipitaka-pāli is perfect. They link each other, no any big conflict between them. But the under standard tipitaka students, especially the western professors, trying to make them conflict with each other pitaka, because of their under standard tipitaka study system.

Doubts in Buddhist Teachings Abandonment Method

Abhidhamma is the answer for doubting person (vicikicchā-mind-factor just arise with pure moha-mind).

Commentary said that in 3 pitaka:

1. Vinaya-pitaka is for alobha-meditation.
2. Sutta-pitaka is for adosa-meditation.
3. Abhidhamma-pitaka is for amoha-meditation.

Why?

One must leaves every lay's asset, lobha's object, for observing vinaya in vinaya-pitaka. So, vinaya-pitaka is for alobha-development (ordinate to observe monk's sīla).

One must leaves every kāma-loka's senses by jhāna, for living like bhrahmma-deva, like anāgami done. Kāma-loka's senses are causes of dosa, too. Therefore anagāmi, who abadoned paṭiga-anusaya (dosa), abandoned next life in kāma-loka, too. And sutta is very less description, very short, and very less question, when compare with abhidhamma, because buddha taught sutta for the listeners who had experiences in upacāra-jhāna, appanā-jhāna, or upacāra-jhāna-like (ditthi-caritta [uggaṭitaññu & vipacitaññu]). Samahitam cittam yathabhutam pajanati (Good concentrating practitioner will see the truth). So, suttanta-pitaka is for adosa-development (concentration-meditation).

Buddha taught abhidhamma to sāriputta very long description and sāriputta taught paṭisambhidāmagga & niddesa very long description, too. Also, there are millions questions in those canons. Because buddha and sāriputta taught abhidhamma-pitaka for the listeners who have a ton of questions, low concentrating in meditation object, and too much doubts. So, abhidhamma-pitaka is for amoha-development (wisdom/understand-meditation).

So, if you want the answers for every doubts, full-course abhidhamma-study is required by your doubt. Everything in abhidhamma must can analysis their own reasons (causes and effects). So, your doubts can not doubt anymore, after you understand throughout abhidhamma.

Every part of tipitaka have their own commentary

Every part of tipitaka have their own commentary. And most of commentaries have their own sub-commentary. All of these commentaries were written by tipitaka-memorizer.

The great commentary

At buddha generation, oral reciting&memorizing was the only one way to learn buddha's teaching. So this is the main cause to have commentary at that buddha generation.

Why?

Because Buddha taught each sutta for just students in front of him. So, when bh. ānanda, bh. sāriputta, and bh. upāli had learned oral teaching from buddha, then after buddha finished sutta, they must asked about state, situation, and meaning of each word in that sutta. This was called the great dhamma&vinaya commentary.

There are very less people in tipitaka who appear to be the most important commentators at buddha generation (A.N. Ekapuggala) : budhha, sāriputta (as dhamma teacher), upāli (as vinaya teacher). The others always listen&learned&asked from those important teachers.

The special teaching, about vinaya from buddha to upāli, were appear with upāli literature style in sikkhāpada-nidāna, sikkhāpada-vibhaṅga, parivāra, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

The special teaching, about dhamma from buddha to sāriputta, were appear with sāriputta literature style in abhidhamma-pitaka, K.N.Niddesa, K.N. Paṭisambhidāmagga, K.N. Buddhavaṃsa, K.N. Cariyāpitaka, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

Tipitaka strongly keep in pali language because of memorizing vinaya rule that force bhikkhu to memorize tipitaka before live alone or teach others.

But the great commentary didn't include in that vinaya rule, so when the time gone by, commentary loose pali form.

However, the great commentary translated to siṅhala after 3rd saṅgāyanā and translated back again (with extended comment from siṅhala-teachers) by buddhaghosa and many bhikkhus at 10th buddhist century.

Cause Of Tale Phobia, Sutta Phobia, Abhidhamma Phobia, Commentary Phobia, Psychic Ability Phobia

(Book, by professor P.A. Payutto (former Invited lecturer of harvard university), that have a better reference more than this article, is avariable in thai:
http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File/books/pdf/the_pali_canon_what_a_buddhist_must_know.pdf )

First to understand: I never have an experience in psychic ability. I never see ghost before.

We need to know and understand them, that more than a thousand years, the westerns are injure by credulity, because of domination by their religious, that used tale as tools to dominated their people minds.

So, nowadays, their culture teaching them to anti everything, that they thinking 'it is the same of my ancient religious', before deep learned.

------------------------------------

How do you, buddhist, feel, that if moreover a thousand year, your family is killed/imprison, because of opinions differ? Such as early scientists (Galileo Galilei), gays (2016 Orlando nightclub shooting), etc.

The buddhist, who have a very difference experience through 2500 years, should to look back their, the western, history. It is the reason of the question "Why they have over bias, in tales, very much".

I have been like them before I have deep learned in tipitaka and commentary. Some doctors and scholars in thailand, I even know, have been, too.

But we use our open-minds to learn everything before anti, more than use gossips. So, we choose this way ourselves by our knowledge in science, world history, abhidhamma-pali, commentary-pali, another nikaya history, another nikaya cannon, etc. We are not a hard-kamasukhallikanuyogi like them, so we have a time to do.

We also learn gossips from them, such as Twilight's reference, too. Without any bias, any laugh/angry at every ideas, we still choose the way we have chosen, after learned their gossip. We need to understand their culture, that is very difference from our culture.

Another, nowadays, buddhist cannon's translation around the world still very wrong and still having very confuse context. New language study and new culture study, also very hard, too. The hardest is behavior-changing, such as reader to be memorizer. So many reasons can let them anti tales in sutta.

P.S. The buddha and commentary denied wrong causes/effects-tale in 10 akusalakammapatha (samphappalapa).

The Pali Canon : What A Buddhist Must Know

see: http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File/books/pdf/the_pali_canon_what_a_buddhist_must_know.pdf

Minded Vipassanā = Minded Abhidhamma = Minded Whole Possible Suffering [Diff Of Sīla, Samādhi, Vipassanā]

Minded Sīla = Minded Vinaya = Minded Whole Physical Suffering
Minded Samādhi = Minded Sutta = Minded Whole Mental Suffering
Minded Vipassanā = Minded Abhidhamma = Minded Whole Possible Suffering And The Other

Why?

Buddha taught Vinaya to let students stop cause of physical suffering, such as killing, robing, adultery, lying, drunk, etc.

So people who minded Sīla, is people who minded Vinaya.

Buddha taught Sutta, ready-made package of abhidhamma, to let ready-samādhi-students enlighten on their own samādhi. The best teacher. He mined whole cause, of  mental suffering, of the students, then he chose minimum-abhidhamma to taught his students. That's why students, in sutta, are very easy to enlighten.

So people who minded Samādhi, is people who minded Sutta.

Buddha enlighten abhidhamma, a base and a summary of sutta, to generate "teaching" that can let students enlighten like him.

(Ariyasacca 4 is subset of abhidhamma. If buddha enlighten only ariyasacca 4 he will be only pacceka-buddha, not sabbaññū-sambuddha.)

So people who minded Vipassanā, is people who minded Abhidhamma.

[b]I have a long history of tipitaka, that can prove whole of my words by tipitaka's and commentary's reference, in my mind. However, it take a lot of time to author articles and translate it to english. I use a long time to author 1 article in thai, and I use a longeer time to prove it,  but I use a longest time to translate it to pali and english.[/b]

Every words In Tipitaka Are Buddha's Words, Except Context Or Commentary Identify "It Is Not Buddha's Words"

Cause the most serious title of theravada is "keeping buddha's teaching word by word". 

So, 500 members of 1st saṅgayanā decided to put remarks on tipitaka and commentary to separate  the other's words from buddha words.

The example:  

Why Only Sāriputta Can Memorize Abhidhamma, In His Linguistics, Without Another Blame?

Because, in tipitaka (a.n.), buddha said "only sāriputta know dhammajakka like the buddha" (origin: [187] ‘‘nāhaṃ bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekapuggalampi samanupassāmi yo evaṃ tathāgatena anuttaraṃ dhammacakkaṃ pavattitaṃ sammadeva anuppavatteti yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputtoฯ sāriputto, bhikkhave, tathāgatena anuttaraṃ dhammacakkaṃ pavattitaṃ sammadeva anuppavattetī’’tiฯ).

Note: Sāriputta enlighten by buddha, but he fluently in dhamma himself. Because of his powerful wisdom.

In mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ every tipitaka memorizers go to his place to listen him. His words, such as "sahajātapaccaya", also have in parivāra of upāli, too. 

So only his book/pitaka have a difference linguistics from another sutta.

Groups Of Tipitaka Momorizer In 1st Saṅgayanā

After 24-06-2017 I may update this topic in this link.


Layers of pali literalness already being in buddha-living-period.

There are many pali literalness in buddha's time, such as buddha's literalness, sāriputta's literalness, mahākaccāna's literalness, upāli's literalness, etc. Because every mahāsāvaka have there own students.

But the most influential literalness are buddha's literalness and sāriputta's literalness.

4 nikaya are buddha's literalness, most of the others cannon are sāriputta's literalness, because he is the one who buddha said "sāriputta is the best teacher who can teach like me". So everyone always go to meet sāriputta to listen his teaching, in his literalness. But if someone need buddha's literalness, they will go to meet buddha or ānanda, who is the best in sutta memorizing.

So, abhidhamma is difference from sutta, because commentary said "abhidhamma is memorized by sāriputta". And the other buddha's sāvaka book also have literalness look like sāriputta's literalness because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to learn dhamma with sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).

7 Vinaya-pitaka, is  memorized by  Upāli and his students. He also author some path of parivāra because buddha said in tipitaka (a.n.) "Upāli is the best vinaya-memorizer" (vinayadharānaṃ yadidaṃ upāliฯ).


Suttanta-pitaka is memorized by Ānanda. But in 1st saṅgayanā, 500 arahanta decide to separate whole sutta to 4 nikya.Then they gave each nikya to a group of 4 etadagga and his student to especially memorize it.


Who are the members, of group of 4 etadagga?  Ānanda and his student (tn), Sāriputta and his student (mn), Kassapa and his students (sn), Anuruddha and his students (an). (Another have learned dhamma, too, but buddha said "ānanda is the best", so everyone need him in 1st saṅgayanā).


Abhidhamma-pitaka, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, buddhavaṃsa, cariyā-pitaka, except kathāvatthu of moggalliputta, is learned by Sāriputta, But then they are memorized by every arahanta, because everyone in buddha-living-time often go to listen Sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).


Origin: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0101a.att0.xml

Buddha Teach Sutta To Target, Commentary Is Buddha's Sutta-Describtion To Non Target

The example:
Buddha taught dīghanakha-sutta to dīghanakhaparibajaka.

When buddha repeat dīghanakha-sutta to ānanda, and there maybe have something, that  ānanda  don't understand. Then he will ask someone such as buddha, sāriputta, etc. Because people, who are not in the same situation,  can not know everything about teaching-situation, such as student's current mind, student' behave, etc.

The answers of the asking, is commentary. 

(Notice: Most of sāriputta's books used linguistics as "question and answer").

So, when commentary describe "paripucchā (asking)" word from tipitaka (uddesa), they always describe as "atthakathā (commentary)".

That's why commentary said "commentary already bless in 1st saṅgayanā".

This is a simple thing, that whole tipitaka memorizer already known, because the history already became from the words in tipitaka. They don't need any explain, because the answer already on their, tipitaka memorizer, mouth. But reader always overlook the important words.

I have more information than I wrote. But it take a time to improve and to author them.